This is a complete, edited transcript of Episode#3 of the You+AI podcast.
Ranga 0:00
youplusai is pleased to present a podcast series on healthcare and AI. In this season, the focus is on doctors. I meet doctors to get their on the ground perspective of healthcare, understand challenges, and we explore together where artificial intelligence may provide the best outcomes for all. I’m Ranga, creator and host of the youplusai podcast and the human face of youplusai in Twitter, SoundCloud, YouTube and Medium. I have a background in engineering. And I’ve been a technologist in the networking domain for more than a decade working on switches and routers, packets and buffers, wired and wireless. If you’d like to know more about me, go to LinkedIn and search for Rangaprasad Sampath. I am passionate about artificial intelligence and this podcast is my effort to bring awareness on both sides, that is, for technologists like me to know the problems on the ground in healthcare, and for medical practitioners to know where AI may intervene to drive the best outcomes for all.
Today, I have a very distinguished guest with us on the youplusai podcast. We have Dr. T. K. Parthasarathy, who now serves as the Director of International Relations at the Sri Ramachandra Institute of Higher Education and Research in Chennai. Dr. T. K. Parthasarathy, fondly referred to as Dr. Sarathy obtained his MBBS degree in 1966 and he left for the USA in 1968 and pursued his interest in general surgery. He has practiced general surgery for close to 20 years in the United States of America. And then he returned to Chennai to join the Sri Ramachandra Medical College and Research Institute, then as Professor of Surgery. During his tenure, he had the opportunity to develop the healthcare facilities, the Medical Academy and also initiated and promoted research in the institute. He went on to serve as the Director, the Vice Chancellor of the University and also as the Pro-Chancellor of the University. During his time, he initiated several courses in the university that were previously not available in India elsewhere. Among these are the Allied Health Sciences course, Environmental Health and Biomedical Sciences. Dr. Sarathy is known as the live wire of the university because of his tireless efforts to develop this students, the faculty, the policies and the administration within the university. Thanks to his efforts, the university that started with 100 students then, now has 7000 students, about 1000 faculty members who serve 14 component colleges, fully supported by the 2000 bedded hospital. It is my honor and pleasure to welcome Dr. T. K. Parthasarathy to the show. Welcome doctor.
Dr. TKP 3:33
Thank you Ranga. It’s my pleasure.
Ranga 3:37
Great. So, let’s get talking Dr. Sarathy, straight away. You’ve served in various administrative positions apart from being a medical practitioner and now as you say today, the institute is blessed to have so many students, faculty, colleges, administration etc. Now, what I would like you to touch upon is how do you think students today and even the faculties or the doctors or medical practitioners today are keeping in touch with the latest changes in medical science? Like there are so many conferences and journals related to medical science and the march of technology in medical science. So how are they really keeping themselves updated, despite their busy schedules and tasks?
Dr. TKP 4:36
Thank you. This is a very interesting challenge that we are facing. Most of the students are indoctrinated even during their student days that it is very vital for them to keep up. A student who starts in the first year with certain concepts by the time he becomes the intern – already a few things have changed and unless he keeps up with these changes, his practice level may not be as competitive as it should be. So, what happens is, they feel reading some journals might help or going to conferences, seminars and all that may help they do not to a great extent. You know, it takes a lot of reading. It has been estimated that you have to read nearly 20 journals in a month, before you can stay reasonably in touch with what is happening in your own speciality. And that is not humanly possible particularly if you are a busy practitioner. Most of the practitioners who have just a set of problems repeatedly coming to them, they have their own way of handling it which they have handled over a period of time. They think that is successful and they carry on with it. They don’t feel a need to go beyond that. If there is anything beyond their scope this just simply refer to an appropriate specialist and forget about it you know. But what they don’t understand is even in their own few limited areas, they may be making mistakes, some of them may be serious morbidity related mistakes and all that. So it is vital. Every practitioner, anybody who deals with the human health must be in touch with what’s happening in their own community, in their own country as well as in the world.
Ranga 6:29
I just wanted to acknowledge your thoughts about how true this is in healthcare, especially when you’re dealing with humans. Isn’t this isn’t this something that is very vital?
Dr. TKP 6:41
absolutely vital, there is no question about it. to just go, I’ll go to an example. Yes, I’ve been practicing purple for 50-60 years, as you had mentioned, in the early years of my practice, in a typical operating room schedule, there’ll be 8 tonsillectomies in one area and in another areahere’ll be so many surgeries done for peptic ulcer. Today, very few tonsillectomies are done. Very few ulcer related surgeries are done. Due to so many reasons, one thing we found the cause of ulcers and how we can treat H. Pylori infection, treating the ulcer with medications, that’s one thing. And another thing – so many newer drugs have come that can take care of the acidity and all that – that has come down. And Tonsilitis – simply removing the tonsils routinely for everybody who has a Tonsilitis – it’s not a good idea. It has evolved over a period of time and we now know those operations are rarely ever done anymore. So I’m talking about a long stretch. But even as we practice, even in my own practice, I started lot of doing open operations, but towards the end of my surgical career I found that very few open operations are done. 40 to 50% of surgeries are done through Laparoscopy under the Endoscopy procedures. So, unless our generations are are tuned to changes and willing to accept changes, willing to stay competitive in knowing the current technology, they cannot survive, you know, and most importantly, if you are not practicing what is current, if you don’t practice what is the present generations view about a particular thing, you are likely to get into litigations. You know, now, you may be seeing lot of patients going for various cases because the doctors didn’t get the right kind of results. And today’s patients are are entirely a different set of patients. They come with a lot of search in Google. They have some information, maybe half information, not enough information, but they have enough curiosity. They come up with this one. And many times I find some of the questions are challenging, we have to really go back and revise a little bit before we can answer the challenge. Some of my patients ask amazing questions. So the doctor has a need to keep up with what’s happening, to see that kind of patients and explain what is he going to do and all that.
Ranga 9:26
That’s an interesting perspective Dr. Sarathy because even when I go to my doctor, right. Today, because information is available at your fingertips, in your mobile phone, we do Google, we do go and ask this, and sometimes when I get my investigative reports, I go look at it and say, are these within normal ranges and then I Google and say, well – is this normal range for India? Or is it for USA or is it for…but the flip side of it is, you know, I know that some doctors don’t like it because when we go to some doctors and the patient is very inquisitive, and he’s asked some questions – I don’t know if the doctor or medical practitioner really appreciates, sort of the questioning patient. So how would you look at this?
Dr. TKP 10:08
It’s a very important thing, you know, in US, if you watch TV, almost one out of three commercials is on drugs. It’s not that the patient can go out and buy the drug, it is actually whatever they say is more as an instruction for the practicing doctors, but incidently informs the patients. Patients are told, you know, ask your doctor about this particular drug, he you know, whether it is suitable for you – like that they create a curiosity. So patients come back and say – Sir, I saw on the TV, a new antiplatelet drug has come. Do you want to try that on me? That question is very often posed because it’s been repeatedly dinned into their ears, through TV, media and all that. Unfortunately, we don’t have that in India at this point. But soon to come. So with that kind of information available, doctors have to be prepared to answer that question. I know some of the doctors may have never even heard about the drug, because he has not learned it yet. He has not started using it yet. So but you can’t tell the patient I don’t know about the drug, you have to find some good reason to explain and all that. Anyway, with that kind of patients coming in, if you are not prepared technologically to to be smart enough to answer those questions and specifically, treat them appropriately and all that.
Ranga 11:35
Dr. Sarathy – I’d like to get next into – from your views, we kind of understand that –
A – It is very important for medical practitioners, just as technologists to keep very updated with the most modern methods of treatment and diagnosis.
B – There is a lot of scientific literature that comes out even in health care from all journals like LANCET and JAMA and so many others, even in different other countries. So there is medical literature, experimentation, search results, everything, available somewhere. And there is a need for practitioners as well as anybody who’s connected with healthcare, even administrators, to be in touch with this. So how do we bridge that gap? I know the need is there, the information is there. How do we bridge that gap?
Dr. TKP 12:29
This is a very important question. This question has been haunting us for decades. In 1986. For the first time from McMasters University, they used the word evidence based medicine because they find one article does not make evidence or one group of thinking does not make evidence. How do we bring everything together, and then make some sense? So this was started and a couple of years later, Cochrane, an epidemiologist from UK made this more prominent. He developed what they call systematic meta-analysis. He was able to collect all the data, all the articles, everything and collect together and put it together and say in each subject, what is what is most prevalent, what is the current idea and all that. He made a meta analysis and then started talking more and more about evidence based medicine. Unfortunately, this concept of medicine, evidence based medicine is either not understood or not correctly followed by everyone.
What it really involves is getting a very judicious, explicit and conscientious use of modern best evidence in decisions about caring for the health of the individual patient. You know, it has to keep the patient values in mind on the basis of clinical experience and research knowledge. Just as I told you one article or two articles don’t make a difference, it has to be a randomized clinical trial, repeatedly tried through different sources. And they must have some common findings and all these findings are together put in and then presented in appropriate forum. Now what happens is if we want to have some information, you go to PubMed, WebMD or some libraries. Now Cochrane Library is a very famous library for evidence based medicine. Like that we have been allowed to search and the search is not that easy and it’s not at the fingertips as you as you have mentioned. The systematic review of randomized controlled trials, use best practice guidelines, and that is a very valuable thing. That’s why evidence based practice is very important in life and for the doctor.
And that has to be in my opinion, started in just not when you become a specialist or something but right from the student days. If this is integrated into the medical studies as a part of the technological growth – now our students are used to the newer technology, they use a lap-pad, computers a lot more than they do the textbooks and all that. So with that, if they are also taught on the importance of evidence based medicine, how they could get information, by the time they become practitioners, they will be well versed. I have no doubts that the future is of any practitioner, no matter what he practices, general practice or speciality practice, he has to depend upon a good source where he can get evidence based medicine principles that they can adopt, to stay competitive, to stay on top of things and also to avoid needless litigation.
Believe me when you when you apply all this thing, will increase the cost of medicine? Absolutely unlikely. Just imagine when when we were operating open surgery, we used to keep the patient for 7 days, 8 days, 10 days and all that before we remove the sutures and send. Today they do the Laparoscopic operation on the same day and send the patient the same evening, thereby the cost has come down. The technology has really helped, quality has improved, cost of care has come down and it has become more affordable. I think at the same time, the flip side of it is just because there is a certain amount of technology, MRI, CT and all other advances, injudicious application to all these facilities to every patient that walks in, makes it very expensive. So our doctors and students and they have to be trained in appropriate use and evidence based medicine says where MRI can really be of help, in what condition. No point in doing an MRI and every headache that walks in, you have to be specific, you have to do a good examination and then decide like that. It can reduce the cost, once that kind of understanding is there among the doctors.
Ranga 17:16
Dr. Sarathy, I really like the balance that you gave – on one side there is a need for people, medical practitioners to practice evidence based medicine, because it’s almost like the right methodology to apply for a case that the patient has. On the other side, I think you pointed out the flip side very well, saying that doesn’t mean that you start doing all sorts of tests on all sorts of people for all sorts of conditions. I mean, there has to be some judiciousness about choosing what is their methodology and as you said, maybe that is very well documented in evidence based medicine and the principles of evidence based medicine. I think, as a technologist, there’s a very good opportunity here.
Artificial Intelligence is about finding patterns in large voluminous data. And as you said, if you have evidence based medicine principles being reported in scientific literature, whether it is PubMed or Web MD or other conferences, you need a way to really access that. You need a really way to sort of crunch all that information, do some analysis on it, and present it such that the medical practitioner who’s doing his daily practice has easy access to it, that this is not locked away somewhere, access is not closed to him. Right and also it is available in a format at the time that he or she needs it.
This is where in fact I would as an aside, give you an example.
So there is this Allen Institute of Artificial Intelligence. They have come up with the free service, it’s called Supp.ai. Now Supp stands for supplement, and basically their mission is to discover supplement drug interactions. Now the way I understood it, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, the supplement drug interactions is about – A lot of us have supplements today, whether they be vitamins or minerals, or sometimes herbal remedies, herbal teas or products like cinnamon, ginger, ginseng, even our Indian things like ashwagandha root powder, or even areca nut and all that. But the supplement space is very unregulated, in a sense. So yes, there is some marketing or some article that you read that you know, Ginger is good for cold and and you have it. Maybe that’s a traditional home remedy you have. But what if I was having certain medications for my kidney problem, or what if I was having some prescribed drugs for my cardiovascular condition. But then I also had a cold and I thought, okay, Ginger is a good remedy, and I have it. Now, that’s a simple example. But the point I understood is that there could be harmful interactions between supplements that I have, and the drugs that I’m taking on a regular basis, medicines which are prescribed for my conditions.
So what Supp.ai does, is really, it helps you mine that information from PubMed. Apparently what this artificial intelligence mechanism did is it mined over 22 million PubMed abstracts and figured out nearly 60,000 combinations of supplement drug interactions that had been mentioned in scientific literature. And they gave it as a nice web interface. So in fact, I would urge even the listeners and you Dr. Sarathy to go to the Supp.ai website, and just like a Google search, you can just type in any supplement or drug. For example let’s say you typed in Ibuprofen and now it will list from the literature, all the interactions of Ibuprofen, with other drugs as well as other supplements in a nice easy to read format. And it will tell the number of interactions – in scientific literature Ibuprofen and ginger are mentioned as interactions in 27 papers and it will also give you the list of papers. If you double click on it, it will give you the exact line where the interaction is mentioned. So, why this is very interesting for me is – can you imagine a human mining 22 million PubMed abstracts and preparing this list? I mean, it will take a lifetime or probably more. But today, that is where I’m very positive about the power of artificial intelligence is that we can bring such technologies to bear. We can mine you know enough medical literature and extract what is needed and put it in the hands of the physician. Then what the physician does or the medical practitioner does is up to him or her, but at least we can solve the access challenge.
Dr. TKP 22:10
Yeah, this is a very, very important question. We see in our practice a lot of patients coming to us and saying, we prescribe them antibiotics. pressure medicine, diabetes, medicine, all those things they are taking. And suddenly – Sir, I read something about Ayurveda medicine or Siddha medicine. I’m taking this, will there be any problem? So my answer, most of the modern medical practitioners answer is I don’t know anything about it. You have to ask them, if you ask me, I would rather not mix this with that. But it’s up to you. This is a standard question. This does not satisfy the patient. And certainly he goes with the feeling whether to continue that or this and all that. Many of many of them, try to continue that also with what effects it gives. Most of the drugs that come from other systems of medicine have not gone through this kind of strict randomized trial and all that, for that to give any definite view about it – a few of them have.
Now recently I read about turmeric and and cinnamon talked so widely about. It’s used in many of the inflammation, diabetes and other cases and all that. But every sentence is – it has been highly talked about in the in treatment of diabetes, it keeps a blood sugar under control, all those things and at the end, although they’re both statements that have been made in some journals, a few journals say it is not useful. So who whom do you believe? I mean, you must have some kind of a randomized trial, something done and at least as you have suggested, it should be some kind of experience based evidence that we can utilize in the practice. You know, I think that’s a very important thing. You were talking about needless costly investigations, interventions, needless interventions, misuse of antibiotics, and drug interactions are very serious problems in our modern medicine. And I know antibiotic misuse is not only expensive, but it can be harmful also to the patient. You know, how do we exactly come to a conclusion this patient requires this? No, he should not be given this and things like that. I think evidence based medicine helps, and then bringing it into the realm of AI, it’s fascinating really.
That’s the only way we can utilize evidence based medicine because the evidence is enormous. It can fill up a library that much evidence is there and almost about every disease, every every symptom, and every complication. But then if I want it to use it for a particular patient, I must have access at the fingertips. And if AI can do that, which I’m sure the way you are explaining it, it should happen. It will be a phenomenal thing.
Ranga 25:10
Yeah. And also, one more interesting aspect Dr. Sarathy is. When you talk about evidence based medicine, right, I guess this is data collected after randomized trials, after due experimentation and obviously, peer review, it’s published. Then, you know, a community of medical practitioners agree that this is the right way to look at it. But things are changing every year. Let’s say you have evidence based principles, evidence based medicine principles for treating one particular ailment, let’s take maybe gallbladder surgeries right. Now, perhaps there is new evidence surfacing almost every year, people doing experimentation, research, and that evidence based medicine may get updated. So my point is, even if you have a library, the information is changing.
So you need a way to tap into the changing information. Yes, absolutely peer reviewed, absolutely agreed upon, but still the information is changing every year as more and more new research dawns. So if we can get this information and the changing information in an easy manner into the hands of every medical practitioner, I think that would really help the medical community at large.
Dr. TKP 26:23
Absolutely. I agree 100 %. I wish I have an app in my hand which I can press and get information. See.,I will give you an example how how these things work. We started using GPS almost 15-20 years ago, when we were driving and all that. We struggled a little bit and all but somehow managed to go through. But I thought US roads are so good and so everything is nicely done. I was totally taken aback when my, I can say less, educated driver, having his cell phone trying to navigate his way through the busy streets of Chennai was amazing how, how GPS has changed so much in our life. I’m sure, I don’t know that I’m making right comparison but something like that if AI can do it for medical practitioners, that’s a great service. I have to, you know, accept that. I can’t wait for the day.
Ranga 27:21
I think it’s great to hear that we should look at it with optimism, and definitely talking particularly about India and Chennai. I think I see less and less of people actually stopping others and asking for how do I go?
Dr. TKP 27:35
Yeah, absolutely.
Ranga 27:36
Right. Because that used to be, you know, in India, it used to be a normal thing. You ask – hey, how do I go there? He’ll say, you go next to that, you know, that building. On that left, you will see one hotel, inside the hotel, there will be a street and you go there that fourth house is that. The incidences of this, I think is reducing drastically.
Dr. TKP 27:57
Remarkably
Ranga 27:59
I think we should look at the promise of AI with with a lot of optimism. That said, I also want to ask maybe a slightly related question, doctor. Now, even if this information was made available, let’s say in a form, how would you think medical practitioners would take to using it? Now I know you’re a positive individual, you’re very open to using modern methods and moving on. And also, this raises the question of, if this information is available to the medical practitioner, it may also be available to the patient. Right, so then then, how does this dynamics play around?
One more step if I go, it is available to you as a doctor, let’s say you’re practicing general surgery. Now it’s also available to the next general surgeon who’s next to you. Information is equal, data brings what we call – Data brings Democracy. Everybody has the same information – then what is so different about one doctor from another? And what is so different about the doctor patient relationship if this information was available?
Dr. TKP 29:09
No, it is it is again, a great question.
50 years ago when we practice or 60 years ago, many doctors the patients will fall at their feet and say you are like God, you treated us. I mean, that is coming less and less now. The patients are willing to confront doctors, talk to them and say, what about my taking a second opinion. Like that they are able to look at it more objectively, rather than just say, okay, whatever you do is fine. You know, it was okay during that period when hardly a few surgeons were practicing. Now more and more practitioners are available. Every street corner has got good specialists and things like that. So unless you stay on top and stay competitive, and deliver what is the best and give an assured quality work, you can’t really survive. I mean, you can also make a living but you cannot really make a name or come up and all that. So this is a driving factor for almost every doctor. It is not just that you want to practice, make some money and that might be some motivation. But more than that, he wants to make a name. He wants to establish a place in the community, in the academics that he is well known, that he’s able to teach and train others. So that automatically will make him look into this more and more and take notes and talk to them and all that and, and particularly the academicians.
When they meet – you are talking about patients coming and talking about it. When I take a class and when a student asks a question for which I have no answer, I don’t think there is any embarrassment worse than that. I mean, the greatest thing about a teacher is he should be able to handle those questions and talk to him. So the need is already created. Now we do it in so many other ways we take notes, if we cannot answer the question, we say – yeah, that’s one thing I’ve been wondering, come and meet me later on, I’ll talk to you because I have no time to read the study – all those things can be avoided if you know it already. It’s easy to know if things are in your hand shape such that you can gain access to it. The need is enormous. We cannot just escape from it. They cannot start stop in the roadside and ask for anybody or any address, because it is time consuming and all that. I have to use a GPS. So also, I mean, when a patient comes here, I got 15 minutes to half hour time with him to do the best. Otherwise he’s going to go away and get to another doctor. So I have to give the best so that that need will be created already there. It will get better.
Ranga 31:53
Exactly as you said. Yeah, I would think that if the medical practitioner is probably not using the information that is available to him, assuming that it’s available, then I think the patient may very well go to another medical practitioner in the same specialization, who is able to answer him correctly, who is able to make use of the data, who is able to make use of the most modern methods and convincingly talk to him about what is the methodology of treatment.
I think somewhere that also is a key aspect of the doctor patient relationship.
Dr. TKP 32:28
Absolutely. You know, one of the important thing between patient doctor relationship is the patient should feel confident. Yeah, this guy knows a lot. Yeah, what he says sounds reasonable, that kind of a feeling should automatically come to the patient. If it doesn’t, then he may go switch on to another one. So that’s how you lose in competition.
Ranga 32:52
Sure, I think that’s a very valuable lesson about just as in technology, just as in markets, I think competition is always there. We need to really acknowledge it and make the best use of it to get forward in our own disciplines.
Dr. TKP 33:09
Absolutely.
Ranga 33:11
So, Dr. Sarathy, it’s been a fantastic conversation. We’ve touched upon a lot of topics. You know, I would also like to ask you, given your vast experience in the medical education field and all the things we talked about, what would be your message for the students of today? Like who are entering their basic medical graduation. Let’s say, a set of students who are graduating today and a set of students who are entering their medical careers today. What would be your message to them knowing that we are in an age of Artificial Intelligence, we are in an age of technology, where technology is rapidly progressing?
Dr. TKP 33:52
I already started on the Crusade, on individual basis in classrooms and in seminars, everything, I insist on one thing. Your patient is not as dumb as you think they are in the past. In the past, they knew nothing about medicine. They just came to you but now they already know a lot, they are going to they are going to assess you through the knowledge they have gained looking through Google and other sources and all that. They have made notes about things in their mind, and they have come to you. Unless you are prepared well enough and confidently address the issue with specific evidence and then talk to them, you cannot stay in competition and teach. If you enter a academic position, you must be really strong in what you are saying and in the area of interest. You must have gathered all the up to date information and then keep updating on a regular basis so that your students can be impressed about it. If you are a general practice, your patients will assess you. It is not always the result – results maybe some time fantastic some time not good. So in your practice, different patients accept it differently and goes on, but it is not going to be like that in future. You know, definitely when somebody says 100% of my surgeries go home without any complication, they go home on time. That appeals a lot more than somebody says, I got a few complications and all that. So how do you avoid complications? It’s not as though it’s unknown, the matter is well known given the comorbid conditions, what complications you expect, given a good healthy person, how you avoid complications, like that. All those things are all well listed. You have to be aware of and make sure the patient is aware. Look, you are you are having these problems. So, this can cause certain complications, but we are going to take care of these things. Unless you are going to explain, even when some adverse reaction takes place, the patient is ready not only to accept but cope with it, you know. So this you have to know exactly what kind of a patient you are dealing with, what odds you have that may interfere with your line of treatment and all those things and then present this. This is something I tell every student and every graduate, everybody who comes on our one on one level or even in a classroom and all that. Staying on top of technology is absolutely important. I quote them the various areas in which we have grown. You know, I was one of the first ones to use computer in my generation. You know, how over a period of time, it has changed my way of practice, my things. Like that, I shared those information with them. So even with the access to this lap-pad and things like that we are able to do so much.
If you have evidence based AI, AI about evidence base and all that, that we can quickly access information that will change the students. Definitely. I strongly believe we have to make sure these changes are indoctrinated right from the student days.
Ranga 37:29
Fantastic point. To start with, I think it’s really glad to know that you’re already spreading the message. I think we need very experienced practitioners like you to sort of carry the torch forward. And also I think, what I like about what you said is that even with your decades of experience, even what you’re seeing, you’re very open minded. Actually, you are very open minded towards the march technology, you’re willing to adapt new practices. I think that’s that’s the key thing that we need. We need I mean, even in technology as well as in healthcare, we need to be open minded about accepting new beliefs, accepting new technology, accepting the new methods of approaching a problem. And I think that eventually will lead to better outcomes for all. Not just the doctors and the patients but the hospitals, the healthcare administrators, policymakers. I think we have to strive towards a better society overall, with an open mind to accept, you know, newer technologies.
Great Dr. Sarathy. I think we’ll end on that. It’s been fantastic to have you on the show. I think me as well as all our listeners have learned some very interesting perspectives from you. And I think I am definitely positive about the marriage of technology with medicine. What has happened till now, and I think with artificial intelligence, we can do a lot better going further. So thank you, Dr. Sarathy for being on the show.
Dr. TKP 38:52
Thank you. I hope AI comes to our help soon. Thanks a lot.
Ranga 39:00
Thank you folks for listening in. Do give this podcast the best rating you can in your favorite podcast app. Do connect with me Rangaprasad Sampath, on LinkedIn and follow my online handle youplusAI on Twitter, SoundCloud, YouTube and medium. I’ll see you soon with the next episode. Enjoy.